Who gave the order in Memphis?
Policing in high crime America.
Former Detroit Chief of Police Ralph Godbee and Senior Investigator Ira Todd talk truth about law and order in the Big City.
Maybe the lack of civil unrest in Memphis has something to do with the fact that it was five black cops who pummeled Tyre Nichols, also black man. Absent this racial algebra, Nichols’ story has already slipped to the back pages.
It’s a shame, the retired cops say. Not only because a man was murdered, but because here lies an opportunity to discuss how things really work and how to fix the problems. How difficult it is to get rid of bad officers, no matter their color or that of the citizen.
And just as importantly, why good cops put up with them.
It has its roots in Detroit. In the wake of the 1967 riots, the newly formed Detroit Police Officers Association negotiated the country’s first overarching police contract. They achieved a generous pay raise and new disciplinary rules. Those rules, known as the officers bill of rights, became the template for police contacts across the country.
Well, the week has come, the week that GM said to. Its 5,000 employees who work at the Renn here in downtown Detroit. It’s time to put some pants on. It’s time to comb your hair and it’s time to get your ass back to the office. Where’s all the people? The Detroit News wrote just last week, that this week thousands of employees will descend, descend, descend, descend again on the Renaissance Center. So I ask you, where’s all the people? Today was the day that all the employees come back to the Renaissance Center. I’m a new employee who’s all the people?
People. I don’t know where they are, but hopefully they will come back soon.
Yeah. Hope is not a business model. Yeah, you are. Right. Doesn’t look like they planned for the dissension of thousands of people. The windows are filthy. The Christmas decorations are still up and the food court is empty. Here’s a guy named Lawrence. He works for an insurance company. He thinks we’re in big trouble.
I don’t know where they are. Like I said, I heard earlier this week that they were to come back next Monday.
So most people that work here don’t want to come back here.
It doesn’t look like it. Who do
You think they all are
Still at home?
People doing better work in their PJs
Dodging income tax.
Aren’t people afraid if they don’t come to work, they’ll be replaced by robots?
Maybe. Maybe not. There’s a human aspect in work that has to be done, but it doesn’t seem like a lot of companies really care because they’re still getting the same amount of work done, if not more, with people being at home. Cause they tend to work on it.
Thousands of people to descend on the Renaissance Center. I don’t see them. And they don’t want you to see that.
I here today have a lot of,
I’m just sitting here. I’m just sitting here talking to other guy. I can hold, set it down here. Make a difference where you put it at.
So we’re here with small business woman, grace Carros of the famous American Coney Island. So what’d you find over there? Dead empty. Nobody. No. No one’s coming back to work. They’re full of shit. So what’s that mean? We’re all fucked. That’s what that means. We’re all fucked. That’s what that means. Reporting from downtown Detroit. Charlie la Duff. No bullshit news
Downtown Detroit. It’s no out with my
Assistant Breaking the Dobo bullshit. Dobo bullshit.
Yeah. Well hippie, have we cleared the YouTube? You can’t smoke for the first minute or whatever the fuck. 30 seconds. Yeah, yeah. Right. We’re good. I needed that because that was the biggest story going on into life of Detroit in the long term this week. Was it not Mark?
It was, yeah. Everybody was puffed up for it. I mean, they were promising. Everyone’s going to come back.
Karen, how important is a full Renaissance center to the city of Detroit in terms of restaurants, tax base, vibrancy,
All of that. Charlie, but I mean as the gentleman you spoke to, he said people are being just as productive or they’ve moved on to other things. Our business model, the way we knew it from three years ago doesn’t exist anymore. And which is why it doesn’t make sense for us to keep opening up or projecting new office space in downtown Detroit.
That’s true. I mean, just giving away millions of money that should go to the impoverished. This is just horses. Insane. Thievery. It’s insane. It’s legalized thievery and we’re all mad at it. But I disagree. I don’t think people are more productive at home. They might new, they might be logged in longer, but they’re not doing shit
Well. But Charlie, if people hold, they need to hold people accountable. And that’s the thing. Accountability is always missing. People get caught up in thinking you got to be in the office from nine to five. And people don’t do anything for those eight hours. They don’t do
Anything for 16 hours at home either.
Well, I understand, but I’m saying if there’s an accountability factor, then you will be able to see if in fact that person is being productive. So if you’re not holding them accountable in the office, you’re not holding them accountable at home either. As small as
That. It’s easy to hold ’em accountable in the office where I can see your ass doing nothing. Get off the coffee pot. That’s not true. Over your desk and tight. Get over here and pipe. That’s
True. That’s not true. I think that’s true. I don’t think you can just say it’s not true.
Okay. Well I
Disagree. I mean, I get more done here than I do at home for this show. Just saying that’s
Do. I mean today was the Exhibit A, wasn’t it? Oh
My goodness. Well there you have it. So it comes to light. We’re giving GM 3 billion in cash. Right? Whenever they asked for it over the next 10 years, part of the Covenant signed under Grand home was you’re going to be in the Renaissance Center, right? Well, during Covid they quietly removed that clause and there’s no requirement for GM to be in the Renaissance Center. So I’m watching <laugh>. I’m watching because this means everything to us in Michigan. Everything. That’s what put muscle on our bones,
All right. Now listen. Should I do a word from our sponsors or should I get into the meat of this matter? Word from our sponsors. Okay. He’s right over there. That’s Bernie from XG Service Group. Hey Bernie. Yes. What is VoIP
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Well, what’s true though? I mean word of mouths is the best thing. Right?
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We got Steve Breeze in the house. He’s writing for our magazine. He welcome aboard. Now Steve, you might not know this, but we couldn’t say Super Bowl. I mean S bowl. <laugh> bowl because the NFL’s a bunch of douche bags. The big game, right? The big game. The championship game. That’s how fucking corporate everything’s got. Yeah.
Nfl. Yeah. All right, let’s get to the program. The meat of the matter. What we’re here for. Let start out by telling you nothing burned in America this time around. Thankfully, maybe Memphis stayed peaceful because authorities there took swift action against the Senator Stir gang of cops who apparently beat a handcuffed man to death simply because they were upset. City leaders there, to their credit, did not hide behind legally de gobbly, GK and torture contractual considerations. It doesn’t matter that Tyree Nichols did or did not do. Doesn’t matter what he did or did not do. Nobody taken into police custody is supposed to end the dead. That’s just a basic rule. The video, which disgustingly the re release of which was promoted like a movie premiere, never seen such a thing. It shows it all. Cops bragging that nickels got what he deserved. That’s not policing.
And maybe the lack of civil unrest has something to do with the fact that it was five black cops who puled nickels. Also a black man absent this racial algebra nickel’s story has already slipped to the back pages. Not here because it’s a shame not only because a man was murdered, but because here lies an opportunity to discuss how things really work and how to fix the problems, how difficult it is to get rid of bad police no matter their color or that of the citizen and dig it. It all has its roots in Detroit. I’ll explain. In the wake of the 67 riots or uprising, the newly formed Detroit Police Officers Association negotiated the country’s first comprehensive police contract. That’s right. They achieved the generous pay raise and new disciplinary rules. Those rules known as the Officer’s Bill of Rights became the template for police contracts across the country.
Among those rules, discipline met it out to officers is expunged, expunged after two years and does not follow an officer in his career. An officer is also afforded 48 hours after an incident to provide a statement to investigators. Critics say this allows officers to collaborate and get their stories straight. Discipline in the end is determined not by the chief, not by the police commission, by an independent arbitrator. The chief of police may lessen the punishment handed down by the arbitrator who doesn’t see the work record from the last 3, 4, 5, 10, 15 years. He doesn’t see that. But the chief may not increase the punishment. That remains the basic blueprint in America today. The Detroit police were awarded a new contract late last year. None of the disciplinary rules have changed and the Detroit police contract supersedes the Detroit city charter. The work contract supersedes the rules of the city’s constitution.
Wow. Chew on that. Admit. Now usually it’s the media who exposes a problem. Officer though trials by media are a problem in themselves and the fact that abusive police officers are in the vast minority, there’s still too many. Take the case of Sergeant Steven Q. Just one notorious example. In 12 years of service with the Detroit Police Department, Q racked up a whopping 85 civilian abuse complaints. That’s about 10 times more than the average. Cop Q had been accused of threatening citizens and using racist epithets, threatening lives. Among many things, his escapades cost the city more than $800,000 in settlements. Settlements that you paid. Nevertheless, Q was allowed to remain on the streets until 2021 when he was exposed by W W X Y Z tv. Ross Jones over there, crackerjack reporter. Now more galling Q had been red flagged as a potential problem and was assigned a supervisor to monitor him.
That supervisor, Sergeant Willie Duncan, was accused in the same citizen complaint that triggered the review of Q. Why Duncan was made the monitor of Q at all is anybody’s guess. According to his personnel file that I got my hands on, Duncan himself had accrued 81 abuse complaints. He also discharged his service weapon in astounding four different times. So where’s Duncan now? He’s awaiting trial charged with the rape of a female officer. True story in the wake of Q and Duncan scandals. In a slew of appalling news reports, the Detroit Police Department last year conducted an internal review which identified 128 high risk officers. They’re undergoing retraining and that’s one step forward. On the other hand, the city has now decided to redact officers discipline records going back years that were once available under the Freedom of Information Act. And that’s one giant step backward. And I’ll say this, and you know me, there are a few jobs more difficult in America today than policing in a big city. And you have my respect. But hiding bad cops among the good and waiting till the flames reach the rooftops is no solution at all. Now, at this moment, I would like to welcome in Ralph Godby, the former chief of the Detroit Police Department. Can you hear me Ralph?
Charlie, I’m doing well. I’m circumstances.
What’d he say it again? Ralph
Go ahead. Now, anything I said there was that incorrect or need to be clarified?
Well, let real, I’ve been from for 10 years. So some of the, but ostensibly you nailed.
You have something like nickels, we can go on and on and on. The reason we’re talking about this is it’s like school shootings, right? We ring our hands, we have problem, we all acknowledge nothing gets done and then we wait for the next one, right? So what we’re trying to do here and by the look, I’m talking to a cop, the top cop guy spent his life serving you. You know what I mean? I love good police. But isn’t one place to start Ralph with this antiquated first of, yes. Let me start with that. This antiquated bill of rights where the very troubled officers basically gets to go on and on and on.
Charlie, good cops, they and the culture is so corrupt that it’s disincentivized for the good cops to speak up. And until we address corrupt of law enforcement in this country that leads, that needs to change the rest. When you look at what happened in Memphis,
Pause right there for a second. Just drive me fucking nuts. What’s wrong with his microphone? Got a guess Mark.
I don’t know. It keeps cutting out. Ralph, do you have headphones? Is that part of the reason?
No, no headphones.
Oh that’s clear right there. What’s, what the hell’s going on?
I don’t know.
Fix it in post. It
Worked great before we
Started. Yeah, go ahead Ralph. Feel like we say
That a lot? Yeah.
So when you look at what’s going on in Memphis, I think the biggest travesty and you know, applaud your chief on one hand for her transparency, for how quickly she addressed things. And that’s laudable. But you got to be careful how much you’ve had to fireman on the back that started to fire. And the next part it has to be answered is how was this scorpion unit constructed? How were these officers chosen? And then last but not least, why were there? No supervisors either embedded in this group or responded to the scene. And until we can answer those questions, I’m very hesitant to break my arm Pat Memphis on the back because it’s so much more nuanced than just how you respond. Because at some point we’ve got to get to the point of lifting those departments that honor their citizens in the first place, to don’t beat their citizens of death, that don’t have pretextual stops, that don’t have two different ways of policing the way you police in affluent communities and the way you police and perceive poor communities and how you police black and brown people.
And it doesn’t matter the race of the officers, the system is so jacked up that systemically you can change the color of officer, but you’re not going to change the results. Because at the end of the day at these encounters, they’re dead black men and women that continue to happen that when arguably more violent people that are white, they take into custody with no issue. So those are the questions that we have to address. And with 18,000 police departments in the United States I don’t want to hear this. We need cultural sensitivity training. You can’t train your way out of a culture. You got to hold people damn accountable. And they got to know what are the rules. And if you step across the line on those rules, you’re going to lose your pension. You’re going to get fired and ultimately going to go to jail if you do it from a criminal standpoint. Well,
Damn my friend, you were the chief of police for 3, 4, 5 years. Where were you? Why didn’t anything get changed?
Well, you talked about a lot of the things that inhibit chiefs from doing that and arbitration in the city of Detroit particularly in hamstrung a lot of issues. For instance one of the most notorious shooters in my history with Detroit Police Department, it was Eugene Brown. There is no plausible way this man was involved in as many shootings as he was involved in
Without some corrective action being taken.
And you know what? I don’t know who is the chief then, but he was supposed to be off the street. And again, the media. So look, we’re a community. You got to know, I got to tell the truth as I say, I heard that brown was on desk duty with a service weapon. And I don’t know if you were the chief or you were the assistant chief, but it was found out Denny was removed.
Yeah, well I know exactly why it was removed. We fired him cause he was fudging his numbers on overtime. So that’s what we ultimately fired him for. And that wow, that termination was upheld. I
Was, wait a minute. Wow, wait. And some of these were bad shoots. They were adjudicated as such. Oh
And the way you get rid of him is like faking overtime. Yeah,
Paperwork. That’s what eventually led to him being fired and it being sustained by an arbitrator. And the thing is, arbitrators trying to make both sides happy. Cause they don’t want to get fired that. So they got to give the union a little bit. They got to give the agency a little bit. And the citizens are the ones that lose in the long run. So the ability to get rid of bad officers early is difficult. So, but let me say this Charlie, and this is an important point because we want to say the race is not an issue in Memphis, but it really is Freddie Gray. When he was killed in Baltimore, the majority of the officers that were indicted were black. And this is why I’m a little bit hesitant to start waving the pompoms now and say we’ve overcome because those officers were charged, they were removed from duty early and they ultimately were acquitted because the prosecutor basically moved too fast and overcharged. And the system is so rigged in favor of giving the officers the benefit of the doubt until these officers in Memphis are convicted and we see them do time. I am not going to cautiously optimistic, should that be the response of every place agency when you have road behavior, it damn sure should. But also we’ve got to assess the culture of what makes officers feel comfortable enough. Charlie, let
Me do this. Let me do this. Let me ask you, this is good cops, and they’re the vast majority, bruh. Good cops don’t want to let these rules go either. And why? They don’t. Why and why is that and be they don’t be frank and honest and dig deep. Good cops know the shit cops, they know it like nobody else. So why are they willing? Why do they support these rules and don’t criticize them. Give me their mindset. No, I’m not. Give me their mindset.
No, I just want to give the mindset it’s not, thank you. It’s not a critique. Right? But the reality is, every police officer that straps up every day, it’s one bad si decision away of going from being a police to being a convicted felon. And I think to a person, every officer wants those protections in case it’s them in case there’s a community outcry in case the political will fired them goes against everything that we’re taught and trained to do. They don’t trust leadership, they don’t trust the politicians. So the only protection they feel they have the good officers is to have the same protection as the bad officers. And when you have that mentality, unfortunately it insulates some very bad actors. It’s not like you work at DMC hospital and you have tremendous surgeons and internists and specialists. You don’t have the whole physician’s group lumped in the same category because you have bad conduct from one doctor, they got malpractice insurance and then they operate at their own risk of how far they go to create risk and to live by the hippocratic oath of do no harm.
Police officers don’t have that in a collective bargaining situation. And everything becomes so polarized as just a black and white issue as opposed to what are the systemic issues that cause at the end of the day, a disparate treatment of black and brown people that are white people. And whether the officer is racist or not becomes irrelevant to a point because if you got bad policy, you got bad law, you’ve got bad contract from the citizen standpoint even though they inure to the benefit of the officer, the system is set up to where you’re not going to see any substantive relief in the conditions on the ground. Let
Me do this. Let me do this. Karen, Karen and Ralph. Yes. The way the contract is, I’ll put it, let me back up here. I talked to the police commission, a couple police commissioners charge of public policy subcommittee. They don’t have a fucking copy of this latest contract. I can’t find a copy of the latest contract. I asked city council for a copy of the latest contract Karen asked city council for, we don’t even know what’s in the contract, but we know from prior contracts that the rules of the contract supersede the law of this city. Meaning there’s a, is this correct? I don’t know if you know Karen or Ralph, but the new charter says that ultimately the ultimate authority about discipline is the police commission, the citizen’s elected police commission. Is this correct
That my understanding
With the previous charter as well,
Charlie, and yet an arbitrator is the one that’s going to make the decision. That means that it ain’t shit city. The deci Karen, the Constitution doesn’t mean shit when we’re talking about this
Pretty much Charlie, I mean it is Ralph outlined. I mean officers have such a protection through an arbitrator and through this officer’s bill of rights that it gives them a leeway to be able to do these kinds of things. And there’s no repercussion for it at the end of the day. Absolutely none.
Now in a minute we’re going to bring in Ira Todd, the former senior investigator for the Detroit Police Department, the most renowned homicide interrogator in the history of the country. We’re going to bring him in a minute, but before it slips away, this is something important. We all come from a place and this program’s about we all belong writ large to a place together. Ralph, when you’re talking about different treatment between black and white and brown just some statistics, you can only take 2020. Don’t believe any crime statistics after 2020 because over 40% of the police jurisdictions in America are no longer supplying their crime data to the F B I. Correct sir?
Correct. So 2020s our baseline in 2020 there were 1020 deaths by police shooting. Okay?
Of those one thou, let’s just call it 1000. It’s 1020. So 1000 of the aggregate 459 were white people. 46% of all deaths by cop by gun were white people. They’re 57% of the population. Not a one-to-one ratio, but by far and away the lump share of this second black Americans.
<affirmative> two hundred and forty three one quarter 25% of all shooting deaths by cop are of black people. Black people make up 12 and a half percent of the population. So that’s twice is likely four percentage of their population. Latinos, Hispanic, 170 were killed by police with a gun in 2020. That’s 16% and they make up 20% of the population. So yes, it’s not the same for brown and black. I think that’s a convenient political grouping. It is. There’s also what I see here, and again acknowledge I understand what this country’s about. I understand how it was founded. I understand the racial issues, I understand the boot on the neck, I understand all of that. But when I see nearly 50% oh white, I wonder to myself, what’s the class of these people?
That’s the question, Charlie. That’s the question. And when we start asking that question, we start to look at the socioeconomic status. If you start looking at the zip code and where these things are happening at, if you start looking at the mental health outcomes of the communities where this happens at, that’s where you’re going to see a commonality. And when we have that conversation, white America will realize that we have a problem with policing in this country for black and brown people. And for those that are disenfranchised, at least
You could say white people, you could say white people, it ain’t rich black people getting dropped and it’s not rich Latino people getting dropped. Exactly. And it’s not rich white people getting dropped. And a lot of these are appropriate shootings. Yes. Let’s just get all the truth out there. But Karen i’s important to you because you and I, we don’t want to say bickered, but we get heated about it and you’re like, do not diminish the racial quotient here.
And Charlie, I understand the statistics, I understand the data and I appreciate you bringing that forward. But I did not want our listeners or viewers to think that there was an attempt to, pardon upon whitewash the issue and the impact that it has in the black community. And that was it. I didn’t want people to say, oh, well they’re just trying to make it look like it’s not that big of a deal. I mean nothing. The data is undeniable, but I want it to be understood that it was not an attempt to whitewash the data, it wasn’t attempt to deter away from the impact that it does have in the black community.
And you’ve been wheeling around looking how people are taking this because there’s a question going on in society and I’m feel funny about it now Mark, I’m going to say no. Okay. People are like, well, show me videotape. Oh, we compiled a bunch of it. Homeless white guy in Albuquerque just they dropped him. The guy that got George Floyd in Dallas. Dallas. I mean the guy accused, the cop thinks the guy’s drunk drive in Tennessee, jumps in the back of his truck and shoots him through the window. We could do this ad nauseum. This isn’t everyday policing. These are the outliers. But again, Ralph, that’s right. I mean you you’re right, totally. I think we got to look at it holistically and then this way we can get somewhere approaching the contractual situation. Here’s a potential Karen. I mean where, okay, who cries the most? Who cries the most in terms of percentage is black women. This is a huge issue in America where black women can lead and so many of us can follow because we all feel it.
But Charlie, it’s also about a continuation and a sustainability of black trauma. Yeah, I mean the pushing out of the video and a reminder that black people shouldn’t feel safe when they’re in urban areas or around police officers. So it’s a constant pushing of that narrative as well. But motherhood and being a woman period. I mean when you see a child that has been killed or hurt, that res hurt, that resonates with anybody who has any type of maternal instinct. So perhaps you’re right, but we can have a whole nother conversation about the dismissal of pain of black women. That’s a whole nother conversation.
It’s deep too. If I could digress Ralph for a sec.
I just say
Real quick. Oh yeah, go ahead. Get in there. I’m just trying to keep the show going.
I don’t think it should be lost on any of us. That Dr. Martin Luther King, as we start the celebration of black history month and we’re on the heels of his birthday and we approached the anniversary of his death, he reclaimed a real threat to the status quo when he started to look at issues from a social standpoint, economic standpoint,
The poor people’s campaign
And coalescing around the fact that the commonality between poor whites and poor blacks was much more in line with each other than simply being a black and white issue. Because like you said, affluence does not know a race. There’s some very affluent black people that don’t go through what happens on Mac and on Philadelphia and Linwood. It is a proclivity towards an implicit bias towards black men. Absolutely. Towards black women. Absolutely. But you cannot take class and socioeconomic status out of the equation.
You can’t take 500 people out a thousand and pretend that didn’t happen. Yes. There’s again a solution-oriented program. Let’s talk about like you go on msnbc, man, you look good on there by the way. Thank you sir. And your connection’s always better. I don’t know why <laugh> listen van,
Right? I’ll tell you all, I’ll tell y’all why <laugh>
<laugh>. They come over, they <laugh>. Oh they come over. You got a contract with them now?
How do you not have a contract with ’em? All these jerk off reporters, right? All these has beens. I’m also a CBC contributor that mean they get like money, bro.
Hey, we’re working on
And you’re busy preaching in the pulpit on Sunday asking for ti things. <laugh>, come on.
I’m doing the Lord’s work.
Yeah, you are. Now if I might, I want to bring in Ira Todd, another man. I don’t know anybody that doesn’t respect this man. Are you there with me, IRA?
Yes sir. Yes sir. How many
Years you doing in the D p D brother?
35. What did you do with the D P D?
Well I came from the state police first. And so when I got to D P D, it was a kind of like a rude awakening because it was different. It was kind of the street cop. So I started off at the 14th precinct, which was patrolled and from there, within about a year I went to gang squad. And gang squad was a rude awakening coming from the state police and coming from patrol with D p d gang squad put you into an environment where it was totally different than what you anticipated. And what I mean by that, when I walked in the room my first day at gang squad, the officers that were there had been there for five or more years. They were senior, but some of those guys looked more hardcore than some of the gang guys we were dealing with. And you could tell they had become part of the streets, they assimilated into that part of the streets that they had to work.
And that’s what people don’t understand. When you put in that environment, you either going to break or you going to become part of that environment. You get a little harder, you get a little of that dirt on you from the streets. And I was listening to Ralph talk and he was one of the best chiefs that we had. I really mean that. I’m not just saying that because he on the show but love, I think if you remember all of this, what happens with the police department, it becomes this thing where it’s us against them. And I don’t care if you go in there with that mentality that hey look here, I’m going in there. I’m from the hood, I’m going to make sure I teach the brothers right? I’m going to do everything. I’m going to do everything differently than the white boys treated us when I was coming up, snatching us, beating our butts and stuff like that.
We’re going to do everything different. And then you into that environment and when you’re thrown into that environment, you have to deal with a whole lot of issues. Because what happens then is some of the people in that environment that’s doing all that violence and everything else, and then I’m talking about bad areas, you know got some areas, just horrible areas. But some of the people that area over there, if they see you weak, they will eat you a alive. So what happens is you start building this kind of thing too. When you become part of that society, you get just as tough. You get just as rough. You start fighting like they fight. You don’t take no stuff. Guys look too hard at you. You going to slap the dog Step out of me. Now let’s go back to where all this starts and it starts from a culture of this culture of cops being roughnecks, cops ruling with iron fist and we can talk all the stuff we want to talk, but let’s, let’s be real.
I’m going to lay it out there honestly. Because when you go through the academy, they teach you all the right stuff and they tell you this is what you do. And as soon as you land in the streets, the first thing they’ll tell you and it’s your boss, it’s your supervisor. Throw all that stuff out the window because we’re going to teach you the real stuff that rolls on in the streets and that’s what happens. These guys teach you the rule where the irons fist, you go out there and see if you want to hold people accountable. I think I’ll hold everybody accountable, not just those officers. Because what happens is some of those officers that came up through that environment and chicken, excuse my French, but I’m just talk real kick ass and take your names. That’s not French. They become supervisors and guess what?
They have the same mentality because that’s how they were raised up on the department. So they become these supervisors that’s telling you the same thing. Kick ass and take name. Now I’m not going to lie and I’m not going to throw anybody under the bus or anything like that, but I’m just going to tell the real truth. When I first got the gang squad, the first thing they did, they had a bunch of deputy chiefs command officers all the way from sergeants all the way up to deputy chiefs come into our roll call and they met all the new guys and they looked at us and they looked around, this is exactly what we need. We need some young blood here. You guys were handpicked for this job. You guys were selected for this job. You are the baddest guys on this job. You are some of the cream of the crop.
Now here we guys with a year on the job, brand new cops, very impressionable. And the next thing you say, look here you at a different unit. Now down at this unit, when the citizen get in trouble, they call the police. But when the police get in trouble, they call us gang squad At this unit you tell somebody do something one time they don’t do it. You send ’em to the hospital, they hit you, you send ’em to the hospital, you have to chase ’em, you give ’em something when you catch ’em. That’s just real talk. And that’s the kind of mentality they said, go out there and take the streets back. We’re going to take the gloves off, take the streets back. And then they put you in these delta areas and these, they flood these areas. I’m telling you, high crime is bad.
They’re shooting at cops, they’re doing everything. And what you do, you go in there and all of a sudden you start assimilating to that society. You become just like the thugs that’s running that area too. Because if you don’t, they will eat you a lie. I’ve had guys that will fight you, they don’t care. You tell ’em I’m taking you to jail. They say, let’s come on, come take me. Is this. And so after a while, you the same guys as the guys in the street. And then sometimes you become the bully. Is this when you
Is you’re looking at the Memphis tape that, is this what you see?
Oh yes, absolutely. What I see with the Memphis tape, I see a bunch of guys with about five years on the job. I see that they’re out of shape. Okay, so that’s going to cause you some problems too. They were horribly. Yes. So that’s why you got cos that’s five guys got to jump on somebody. We used go one on one with guys back in the day. We would go one-on-one with guys unless you started having some problems. But you would go one-on-one with the guys. And what the problem is, these guys, they kind of, I’m sure somebody told ’em, go out there and take the streets back. Memphis is off the chain. Memphis is going crazy. They did. They did. And when that chief came, and I’m not bad mouth her cause I respect all chief cause they got a big job to do it.
And I always stay in my lane. I’m I’m just a street grun. That’s all I’ve ever wanted to do. But I’m going to tell you something. But when she came out and said, I’m so a apart, I’m, I believe she was. But this kind of stuff is happening sh I’m telling you right now, if she looked down the chain a little bit, one of her command officers or somebody of power told those guys to go out there and do that, go out there and take the streets back. Now if you tell ’em to go do that and you don’t give ’em the proper training and guidance, guess what guys going to run crazy. They going to run great. And that’s why no supervisors out there because guess what? They were allowing them to run crazy. I’ve been there. Say take the streets back guys. Go out there and take the streets back.
And I’m telling you, I’ve been kicked in the face, punched in the face shot at the whole night. I’ve been through the hell and back. And after a while it becomes us against them. And you look, you don’t care about black, you don’t care about, all I know is that guy right there is a asshole. He’s a criminal. He tried to kill me, he tried to kill somebody else and we used to have a saying, this is no life back in the day and everything’s just got to change. But we used to have to say, sometimes you got to tap that ass for the next cop so he won’t get smart with the next cop.
So can I do this?
I’m just being real. Yeah,
No, it’s again, look,
The no last toll here.
Trying to be honest, trying to be a solution. And look, hey Ralph, you should get Ira up there on msnbc. I mean this is the, oh no, this is the deal. And if I, excuse me now my show, because I got some I want you to look at, this is not all of it, just little renegade show. But this is the postmortem after the dude. Is he still laying there?
He is still sitting there. This
Is before he No, he’s out man. He’s out. He’s out cold, he’s sitting, he’s out cold. And here’s the police powwow afterwards
Hurting all day. But when that seen that boy running, bro, Hey motherfucker. Sorry, no mobile. Yes bro. Camera come. Motherfucker over here. That motherfucker high. He high. Come on, come down here. He’s sit up for us babe. Babe, Rocky, I jump in. Start rocket motherfucker. What the fuck? I’m telling you bro. Bro, what?
I spray, he’s
Spray hip, he jump up.
I will pause it right there. So what are we hearing there? Laughing motherfucker you hit me with a taser. I got peppers sprayed by you. What the fuck is going on?
That’s adrenal, that’s
Cheer. And it’s total chaos is total madness. They involved in the hype, but what you did see, that’s a norm. That was a norm for Bill. That was just a norm.
They don’t realize these cameras are on and a guy nobody’s attending to, he’s dying out over there and the white peppers spray out their face.
Well, why do I care about the cameras my bosses sent me out there to do that job. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Say that again. Why
Do I even think about the cameras? The bosses told me to go do that. And I tell you this, I bet you if you get some honest cops, they’ll say, Hey, look here. Why I was out there doing that is because I was told to go out there and do that.
Now let me get the chief in here on this. Hey Chief,
To your point, chief to your point. Yeah,
Go ahead. I’m the mayor. The point and have a question.
The mayor had just had a press conference bragging about to scorpion unit and showing the numbers. I guarantee you those officers were told to go out there, take our streets back, and then they turn their head. And Ira and I have seen it in our careers where Officer p d gang squad, narcotics, specialized units, and as long as they were keeping the numbers down, they were lauded. As soon as they stepped across the line, the same supervisors that encouraged them to do it were the same supervisor that were getting ’em fired.
Now let’s go like this. So this young man Tyree Nichols, let’s say he lives and he files a complaint. Where does the investigation begin? Is it an independent review board? Is it a citizen’s review board? Is it in Detroit? I’m not talking Memphis. We’re not Memphis experts. Or does it begin in the department? The supervisor assigned some. You understand what I’m trying to get at here? Who’s looking at this to begin?
Well, when I left and this was under the consent judgments there was a U use of force unit within the eternal affairs
Time out in conjunction timeout. There was a use of force unit within the department itself.
Everybody in internal affairs, those are pretty heady cops, right? Yes. Cream of the crop as well, but they’ve come up through the ranks.
There’s a little bit of quid pro quo perhaps.
Well, and I will tell you this when we came on a internal affairs, they were shunned by everybody in the department. If it was known you worked internal affairs, you were just not a part of the cool kids. So the culture in Detroit, and when you compare Detroit to other agencies, you really have to look at the time and the tenor of what was going on culminate young first black mayor, heels of the civil unrest, the riots of 1967, a new charter in 1974 that established civilian oversight of border police commissioners. And then the efforts to make the department look like the community. And Mayor Young made it clear that gangs weren’t going to take over the street, but he also made it clear that the police department was not going to harm its citizens unnecessarily. Because remember when there was a prolific proliferation of gangs and Ira talked about gang squad. Coleman Young told him, I got the biggest gang of the city. But there was a different ethos that we were raised under. And that’s civilian oversight that the country is begging for. Now is not new to Detroit.
Well, look you guys, you’re talking internal affairs. I did a little look up of Chauvin in Minneapolis. The guy had 18 complaints, only two were even acted on two shootings, one death, six choke out incidents. Who began the investigation? It was internally, it was by the police themselves. Uhoh, I’m getting tweeted probably or messaged by my police friends. Sorry guys. The ones ones I know. I know you to be good. You just, I got to say that a million times. What a job. I depend on you. We all depend and nobody like,
But see, all that’s distraction when you see all this noise about, oh, cops are this, or all cops are that. It’s just fucking noise that doesn’t solve anything. Right? Drives me up a
Wall. Well listen to Ira and listen to, but
Isn’t that a The politicization? Yeah. Of this whole thing too. Charlie, as you’ve heard Ralph and Ira say, I mean where their bosses are telling them to go out and do this. And where the chief comes out and says something that probably doesn’t make sense, but it looks good and it reads well and it’s aligned with what the mayor’s narrative wants to be. I mean, that’s no different 100 anywhere. 100. And so that is an impediment to making a difference in turning things. I would like to ask Ira and Ralph, I mean I have the utmost respect for both of you guys as well as the good cops on our departments. But when it says take our streets back, does it have to be aggressive? You guys have worked at so many levels, both in the community and on the police force. How else can we take our streets back besides going out and going head to head with the criminals? Is there another way?
I think communication between the citizens and the criminals. I mean citizens and the cops. I think what the problem is, everybody said, well these cops, we got to retrain these cops. We got to do this. We got to retrain citizens too, you know, got a lot of problems now, back in the day. Good point. They respect good people in the streets. Respect the cops. You said, get out the car to get out the car. Excuse me sir. You know, pull ’em over. Driver’s license, registration. Most people didn’t give you any hassles and cops didn’t mess with the average Joe or people going home from work and stuff like that. They put us in areas where they had high crime, high violence, all that kind of crap. And so they put you in that area to really, let’s show these guys. They’re not going to take over this area.
And that’s all it is. Policing just got to change. You got to change. We got to communicate more. But you got to train these citizens too to say, Hey, wait a minute. Now look here. A cop may not have time to tell you why he’s pulling you over. It may be a bomb, there may be something going on. But cops got to be able to say, Hey, look here guys, look at, sir, I need to step out the car right now. Look, I know you’re nervous on, but come on, step out the car right now, but we got you. We got to understand how to communicate. Those kind of things.
And Ralph, if you remember Ralph, you and I did that quite a bit to make sure we put forth a big effort to make sure people understood what they were supposed to do, what they could do, what was expected of them, and how not to fuel that situation. I don’t think there’s enough communication about that as well. But also, you talked about Ralph, when there, there’s systemic issues and misperceptions. If a person is already afraid of either a certain area, a certain group of people, whether they’re young, whether they’re black, whether they’re whatever. They’re seeing that situation and responding through that lens. So they’re already at a disadvantage.
Well, I’ll say this. I’m, I’m, I’m jumping in Ralph here. This is what you got to know out there. You are required to get out of the fucking car when the officer asks you. It’s not your right to stay in there. Right? That’s a license. You must exit the car. Is this correct?
Esp? Especially if the officer asked you to, it’s for as safety. Is
This correct? No. When you’re instructed by the officer Yes. To get out of the vehicle, that’s the law. Is that right?
Yes. No, that’s not the law. It’s a little bit more nuanced than that.
Okay. Give us that. You got, this is important. You
Have, so the Terry versus Ohio, which is the limited patent frisk of the officer safety to find offensive weapons. It doesn’t take the same articulation as other criminal issues. It’s reasonable suspicion. But you even have to be able to articulate that. But I don’t want this point to be lost as well, because I got to say this something else that was different. And Ira knows this. We lived in the community, we policed in. Dave King made a very noble effort to make a way for officers to move back in the city. And that toothpaste was already out of the tube. But there’s something to be said about policing the community that you live in. And Karen, you talked about solutions and what could we do? I never had a problem on Mac and Bewick or mm-hmm. <affirmative> in number five or nine. Because I grew up over there. I knew the people. I wasn’t afraid of my own people. I knew how to communicate those things. As nuanced as they are, they make a hell of a difference in the relationship you have with the community.
Having said that, I must, as much as I agree with that data, that when, first of all, it’s unconstitutional. That’s why they don’t, that was the Supreme Court, not the city charge.
No, there wasn’t Supreme Court.
It was the state Supreme Court.
No it wasn’t. It was the state legislature in an overnight move when the mm-hmm. <affirmative> fire fired his
Associated, did that not go to the Supreme Court?
No, it did not.
Interesting that I will state
Look at this sir. Look at this here. Note to self, to educate myself on that note. Seriously. And
The firefighters, they made a hell of a push and a overnight signed the bill in the middle of the night deal that happened within Dennis Archer was mayor. I was in charge of arch security. I was in the car when he got the call and he was livid. And you know how low key and calm Dennis Archer is? That was a game changer on the relationship even with the Detroit Police Department and this community. Cause you saw a mass exited exodus of officers in areas that were very stable, very stable tax. Copper Canyon on the east side.
What year was that?
Rose on the west side.
What year was that, Ralph? What year was that? What year, Ralph? What year was that?
Okay, so let’s do some math. We, the Detroit Police Department got under the consent decree for locking up people on the ninth floor of 1300 Boban. Right. Potential witnesses until they sang. That was prior to the residency requirement. Also, the golden age of Coleman Young was the golden age of murder in this town. And murders per capita were 15 people higher per a hundred thousand than they are now. So in terms of treating people badly and serious violent crime, the ultimate being murder, it doesn’t look like residency mattered at all.
No. I beg to disagree. I disagree with that Behe. Because one thing you cannot quantify is the quality of the relationship between a police department and this community. Because when you saw civil unrest all across the country in 1992 when Rodney King, Rodney King was beaten to a pole, people were tearing up major cities across the country. It didn’t happen in Detroit because number one is being police is someone like being a quarterback, or excuse me, the head coach of A N F L football team. You get way too much credit when you win and you get way too much blame when you lose. Police are a small part of the safety construct. And a part of that is how the people relate to their police department. Most reasonable people don’t believe, don’t blame the police for societal issues that the police don’t. Cause when it becomes a issue is when you have police that disrespect blatantly, the rights of its citizens talks down to them. Citizen complaints are high because Is that
A thing in Detroit?
Oh hell yeah. Before I left the department, the highest citizen complaint person that was garnered was a guy named TA bore Jackson. And Counterintuitively, you would’ve thought that when we started tracking citizen complaints and keeping him in that data, in that record management database, as a result of the consent judgment, people would just assumed it was going to be a white officer. The top two persons that had citizen complaints were African American officers. Timour Jackson eventually got fired and got caught up in some other criminality. But I see all that to say that the culture changed immensely because you can say this to a chief, whether you liked their policing style or not, whether you thought it was successful or not. From Bill Hart, Stanley Knox eke, McKinnon Ellay, Cummings Benny, Napoleon, Charles Wilson, me, all of us. We had relationships in this community where people knew they could touch us, they could talk to us and they could talk to our command officer. That’s an anomaly. That’s not the norm. We take it for granted in Detroit when we lost residency, we lost a huge part of that community connectivity.
Ralph regarding the specialized units and working in the community is it a possibility to take the resources that go to those, to the Scorpion or the Red Dogs in Atlanta to take those resources and put these guys in patrols so they’re more visible? Or does that just make ’em a target in these really high crime areas? Mean what is the answer to that? Because you seem to see these things being disbanded, but then what happens?
But you know what, mark, it’s not a either or. It’s a both and undercover operations, they are necessary plain clothes, semi mark units. They are necessary. It’s when you go to the extremes on either one that you have community problems or you have issues. Because that wink and an I go out there and stop it without appropriate supervision and training. Again, it goes well when the numbers go. And this is the thing, and this is the thing about targeting areas and not knowing the nuance of the area. Now I will tell you this, there’s certain things that intuitively cops know. I can look at a car and tell you whether it’s got insurance or not. So if I see a newer vehicle, a newer model vehicle, it’s got a den on it and you start to see some rust that tells me they can’t afford the insurance premium.
So they probably don’t have insurance. If I stop that car seven to eight times out of 10, I’m going to be right. This is the problem. When you start doing those shortcuts, the one time that you’re wrong, you get a Tyree Nichols, the one time you’re wrong, you get a George Floyd, the one time you’re wrong, you get a Eric Garner. Those things that it is really lazy policing. And when you start taking shortcuts on people’s rights, that’s when you have, cause it only takes, the thing is the criminal. We got to get it right. 10 times out of 10. Yep. The criminal, they don’t have to get it right, but once,
See twice, there you go.
We got to get it right every
Time. That’s That’s Ralph, that that is the rub here. Now that’s the rub. I’m going to bring it up you two. I know you guys from deep and difficult moments, Ralph, I remember when you were assigned to Chief of Police, a seven year old was killed by a white officer on her couch, sleeping, exercising, a search warrant. Yes, IRA, you actually were on court TV under trial for taking the life of a man while on duty. So I throw that out there. I would ask you this as we wind up. You guys know the serious pain, the other side of it, we’re talking about the solutions, but the reason I have you, not only because you’re brilliant men, but both sides of this, I’m going to give it to you first. Ira, what did that do to you and how do you look at it now these many years later?
Well, the first thing it did to me, it matured me. It was a wake up call. And then you realize, wait a minute, cops, we are subjected to the same constitution. Everybody else, we could be charged just like everybody else and everything else. And when I sat at that defense table, I realized, wow, my life is, my life is in my lawyer’s hand. But guess what? Nobody from the department who told us to go out there and be aggressive, do these things and everything else. You don’t see ’em after a while. And I’m being real, like Ralph was saying, citizens complaints and stuff like that. There’s some cops that’s so connected in the nepotism and they got relatives on the job and they close with the command officers or it’s some sort of connection. They drink with ’em, whatever like that. They get a citizen complaint, you’ll never hear about it.
The guys who don’t have that protection of knowing somebody or up above or whatever like that, they’re the ones that get all the hits. And let me tell you what they used to tell us years ago. If you don’t get a citizen plane, you’re not working. You’re not a working cop, but you got a bunch of planes out there that mean the cop is working. Me and a buddy was just talking me and Lonnie Wade and he’s an old school old mentality cop and he was the one that got in trouble hitting that guy. And Myers, we was fighting, he was doing secondary employment, 60 something years old, he can’t retire because they took us, we talking about contracts, but they took all our pension and all that crap. But he stuck out there 60 something years old, almost 70 something years old in a Walgreen or Myers or wherever the heck it was working secondary.
Guess what? He didn’t pay him enough. He ain’t got no insurance. He couldn’t really retire yet. That’s a lot of reason. But you put him in that position now where he gets this young kid dragging him out the store. He’s got to fight this kid. He’s going to resort back to his training, his old school stuff. He cracks the guy in the face with whatever. He had to protect himself. And guess what? He gets charged. He wind up losing his job. Everything else. I’m just saying, sometimes cops are put in those positions. Yes, they’re putting those positions where they’re told to do certain things they created, they create this monster and like waves always say they turn us into thorough breads, let us loose. And then when it get crazy, they want to bring us back. It’s too late. You can’t bring them back. And then
It all changed
That mentality in their head. What about you Ralph?
You know referred to Ayanna Stanley Jones. I get choked up to this day. Karen knows very well. I was assistant chief and what that just the horror of, I was in the emergency room standing there when she was pronounced dead and I was in the room when homicide had to inform that family that child’s life was lost because of police action. And I was absolutely right. The officers are really a pawn in this game because they’re put in a position to do things and asked to do things and then when they do them then they’re offered up to be crucified. Literally it changed my life, Charlie, because no knock warrants and ostensibly that’s what it was. Using SWAT teams to extricate somebody as opposed to how I know Ira has done a million times is set up surveillance and catch somebody in a area that doesn’t put anybody at risk. There’s so many things that I think about that could have been done differently and it really changed my approach to leadership my heart towards criminal justice reform and really studying the tactics of what we do because Ayana Stanley Jones is dead because of piss poor tactical implementation of bringing a very bad guy into custody because her father killed Jerry and Blake three days prior and for her to have died at the hands of police. It is something I have nightmares about and
Doesn’t make any sense.
Doesn’t make any sense. And as I look at that screen and see my name Chief Ralph Godby to know that that girl’s life was really the impetus for my selection to be chief for police. That’s not the way I wanted it Charlie. It’s just not.
Now if I might, we got a caller if we can take that. I we’re still trying to figure these out. Let me try here. Lemme try this one. What I do there?
I didn’t know how to do it. Fucking shit. <laugh>. Call back whoever you are. Listen Mo,
Charlie, can I weigh in on this a little bit? I mean it cannot be lost. As both Ira and Ralph said that officers are put in these positions during the grand bargain, none of what should have been included to protect and compensate our officers was included. Let’s not that. Let’s not let that be lost. So we say that public safety is a priority and that we want our officers to be properly compensated. That hasn’t happened and that has to have some impact on how they, I can’t imagine that it doesn’t have some impact on how they perform.
It absolutely does. Karen,
And to care’s point too, think about this. You got guys that in these Scorpio units, I’ve worked on a bunch of different units just like that and five years, 10 years and guess what? They start seeing the behavior. You start seeing guys bringing the bloody noses and everything. You start seeing these guys that get more aggressive, more aggressive, more aggressive. And that might be the time to say, Hey, look here, we need to send them to the shrink, not to that guy or Shriner, whatever, that guy. Yeah,
But we need to send ’em to a real therapist and start talking to these guys every couple of years in these specialized units to have somebody talk to these guys because this job changes you, changes you become something else. And even the officers don’t realize it. I’m telling you, we got into a fight one time and I always bring up Delbridge. Jenn, his name was Popeye. I know Ralph Popeye
But Popeye was one of our senior officers that worked narcotics gang squad, and he was teaching some of the younger guys and he was one of the more reasonable guys with wisdom and would teach us. And I remember one, a fight broke out in 36 district court and sometime you get these guys that be like, I’m telling you, they get real and the only way you can’t handle them is handle em physically. And we was in 36 district court. He had a court case. The judge had told me he was bond over trial. He had bonding everything. He runs out the courtroom, starts screaming, everybody cussing cops out, walks up to a sergeant, I’m only mentioned his name, but get ready to grab the sergeant. It actually punches this sergeant from the middle of 36th district court hallway and everything else. So back then, immediate, you touch a cop. We all get
Well let me bring in the caller. You there? Caller?
Is the caller there Bernie? Yeah. Micko. You there? I can hear him.
Why can’t Yes, I’m here. Hi. Good afternoon. I’m sorry. Good evening.
Who is this?
Yes, can you hear me? It’s Micko Williams.
Hey Micko. Miko Williams. Miko.
How are you, man? Like Miko is Well he was the guy that was fighting for your water rights. Miko. I, in my estimation was the Detroit will breathe, founder Miko got thrown into Patty wagon during the protest of the summer of Floyd. You’ve been listening, Miko obviously. What do you make of the conversation? What would you like to say?
Well, first of all, I just want to point out that things have changed here in the city of Detroit. We live in a city with a white mayor, 80% black residency with a 55% black, I’m sorry, 55% white police force. The black police officers are leaving the force for other opportunities or for better pay, and that is putting us at an impasse of terror in fear. I also want to point this out and shout out to Chief Ralph Gaby. He’s my pastor at Triumph Church.
Oh, look at that.
We do not have a police chief. That is reassuring the community that crime will be fought. And while crime is spiraling out of control, this could be said for many major cities in this city, when it’s black police officers beaten on someone that will be applauded by the elder population in the city. Our news stations would justify the beating. And also people would go along saying, well, he deserved it. He should never been out there. However, because we lived in a warp sense that we cannot protect our rights when our rights should be protected. I’m going to say this and I’m going to say this, finally. Black lives do matter in the city of Detroit. Every life in this living in the city deserves protection. We deserve a bang for our buck. We are taxpayers that employ the police to protect us not to shoot. Killing maim us. Now, even though Tyree Nicholson r i p to him did not happen in the city of Detroit. What if that did happen in the city of Detroit? What could a white
Man, oh, well, Nico, what would Nico. Nico, what would happen if that happened in Detroit?
Oh, what would happen? Yes. Oh, well, as I just said, if it was a white man that was a motorist that was beating by five black D p D officers I said it on the team. Jeff Feiger, Michael Morrison, all the lawyers, this will be exploitated. We would have a field day. The city of Detroit would have headlines and we all would be both sides. And what? Abouting and pointing fingers. Yes.
Again, I’ll say this, the solution. Look here now. No, you don’t. A pulpit. We have plenty of videotape here where you’ll see black officers beating white suspects. I mean, are we going to get to a spot? Well, we’re I under, like I said, as I started the program, I understand the racial calculus in America. I’m looking for a solution that is equitable for black, for white, for brown and for blue.
The solution. We have been trying to have a summit. I know. I’ve been calling for a summit here in regards to mental health.
How about the contract? I’ll tell you what, I got an assignment. Miko, listen, because you are a bad motherfucker, there’s no doubt. Find me the latest contract. Okay, I got your number, you got mine. We we’re going to do something together and we’re going to report back in a week whether we could get you two. Karen, where’s the contract? Agreed.
The latest police contract that was Voted Aye, by the city council in November of 2022. We agreed.
Okay. Yep, yep. I’ll find
You. Let’s start with being smart. Then we can shoot our mouse off. Now I want to thank Ralph Gaby. I want to thank Ira Todd, fantastic public servants one. Thank Meagle for calling in. I always love Karen. Everybody on this show. That works. Everybody listening and don’t be a ding dong where actually you can watch this. You go to YouTube, you go to Facebook. There’s a lot of people and sadly I want to say you’ll make sure it’s okay. Another good cop has just texted me. He will retire tomorrow. Officer Jim Loomis, one of the good ones I’ve been telling you about. One of the ones that cares, one of the ones that’s honest. He will be retiring tomorrow. Thank you, brother. Thank you, sir. Thank you for your service, Ralph. Thank you for your service. Ira, yours, Karen, yours. Try to stay together.
Thank you. Thank you guys.
Thank you. Good.